CNN contributor Bakari Sellers talks to us about the rural black America in which he grew up and how it has changed adversely over time as he recounts his own life and quest for racial equity as related in his new book, "My Vanishing Country: A Memoir." He also offers his perspective about the challenges our nation faces on race in the wake of national uprisings around the murder of George Floyd.
Bakari Sellers became the youngest African American elected official in the country in 2007, when he was sworn into the South Carolina legislature at age 22. Currently a contributor to CNN, he talks about his new book, "My Vanishing Country: A Memoir," which looks at the rural black America in which he grew up and how it has changed adversely over time, as he recounts his own life and his quest for racial equity. He also offers his perspective about the challenges our nation faces on race in the wake of national uprisings around the murder of George Floyd.
Signed copies of "My Vanishing Country" are available to purchase from The Store at LBJ.
[Podcast introduction with theme music in the background]
President Lyndon Baines Johnson: So, it's all here, the story of our time—with the bark off.
Mark Updegrove: That was President Lyndon Baines Johnson upon the dedication of his presidential library in 1971. Since then, the library has played host to the biggest names and best minds of our day, who have helped to tell the story of our times through candid, revealing conversations—with the bark off.
This podcast delivers them straight to you. Welcome to “With the Bark Off.”
I'm Mark Updegrove.
Bakari Sellers became the youngest African American elected official in 2006 when he was sworn into the South Carolina legislature at age 22. Currently a contributor to CNN, his new book, "My Vanishing Country: A Memoir," looks at the rural black America in which he grew up and how it has changed adversely over time as he recounts his own life and his quest for racial equity.
We began our conversation by talking about his state of mind in the wake of the national uprisings around the murder of George Floyd.
[Slow fade of theme music. Conversation begins.]
Mark K. Updegrove: Bakari Sellers, welcome to "With the Bark Off."
Bakari Sellers: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I'm glad you reached out. And I'm, I'm excited to be here with you today.
Mark K. Updegrove: Well, we, we talk to you during a very dark chapter in the American story. What are your thoughts right now?
Bakari Sellers: So, I want people to realize that this is not just about George Floyd. This is not just about Breonna Taylor or Ahmaud Arbery, uhm, but this is about systemic just-injustice and systemic racism we have that's pervasive in this country. And I think that, uhm, this was just too much to bear, uhm, whether or not it's, uhm, COVID-19 that's killing a, uhm, a large number of people of color, black people in this country, or whether or not it's the, uhm, violence perpetuated by law enforcement we're seeing with our own eyes. Uhm, that, that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And so, while I don't agree with the, the rioting and the looting and the burning of cars, etc., uhm, I do have to say that I understand it.
Uhm, to channel what Martin Luther King Jr. said, "rioting is the language of the unheard." And, uhm, you know, we— when you look at this through its proper context, uhm, it started with people taking a knee, uhm, and the President of the United States calling them sons of bitches, uhm, and their voices weren't heard. And so now it's, it's simply, uhm, it's simply at a point where people want concrete solutions and they want their plight to change in their daily load to be softened. Uhm, unfortunately, right now, we're just at an absence of, uh, leadership that has the necessary traits, uhm, such as compassion, such as empathy. I mean, we were really--the reason we're here is because we're a country that's absent empathy. And when you don't have that, uhm, you can't tether together. You can't. You can't. The fibers of your being. They just... if you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, then this so... then this social experiment doesn't work. Uhm, and that's where we are today.
Mark K. Updegrove:Why is there an absence of empathy in your view?
Bakari Sellers:I mean, there, there— there are a lot of reasons. Uhm, I think leadership from the top is one. Uhm, I think never, ever, ever addressing the issue of race in this country, you know, uniquely, and I know we'll get to my book, but one of the things that I write about in "My Vanishing Country," one of the things that I try to do, uhm, is that most white folk in this country look at race through the lens of their lifetime. Right? So, if you're 40 years old, you only look at race through the prism of that 40 years. Uhm, but for many of us, like for myself, I still feel the pain of Emmett Till.
And so when you have, and to draw a complete nexus for you, when you have a case like Amy Cooper with the birder in the, in New York Park, I don't look at Amy Cooper as just Amy Cooper as just some white woman utilizing her privilege. I look at her as Carolyn Bryant, who's the white woman who alleged that Emmett Till whistled at her and that she was trying to get into heaven on her deathbed, finally confessed that she was lying. Right? I think about Jimmie Lee Jackson. I think about Medgar Evers. I mean, in my book, I said, I talk about my father's experience so much because my father was shot by law enforcement. February 8th, 1968. Fifty-two years ago on the campus of South Carolina State, protesting in what's called the Orangeburg Massacre. Three were killed—Henry Smith, Samuel Hammond, and Delano Middleton.
And here we are again. And I, I can't help but to believe when you don't have--black folk in this country, we always have to be in a position where we forgive. Like, when are you going to forgive the murderers of George Floyd? Or when are you going to forgive, for me personally, it was, the question was always asked of me, when are you going to forgive Dylann Roof? I'm like, this dude just walk into a church and killed nine people, many of which I knew, on the most, one of the most sacred days in our community, ‘cause every black person I know on Wednesday night, that, that's church night. Right?
Mark K. Updegrove: Mm hmm.
Bakari Sellers: And I, so we're in a position to forgive even before we walk through the necessary, necessary steps to, to get there. And so that's what our country has to do. Uhm, when black folk read this book, they'll get a sense of pride. And when white folk read this book, they'll get a sense of understanding. And that's what we got to have. We got to have understanding. We have to have empathy. And then once we can get the, can get those things, then we can get to the most crucial part of this, which is seeing the benefit of one's humanity, because there's no one who can tell me that those cops saw George Floyd as being human. They saw him as being less than. I mean, you and I sitting here, honest to God, could you put your knee on someone's neck for eight minutes while they're handcuffed? That another human being in like three and a half of those minutes, they be unconscious. I mean, you wouldn't do that to a dog. I mean, yeah, let alone a human being, and so I can't help but to believe, like in that case or Ahmaud Arbery or anything else that, uhm, you know, black folk just don't get the benefit of their humanity. And so we have to have this conversation. And the reason that we're absent empathy and all of these other things is because no one's had the audacity to have the conversation that you and I are having today. I mean, I guess that's why I'm excited to be here with you today, because you're willing to at least jump in head first.
Mark K. Updegrove: Bakari, you talked about the straws that break the camel's back and there have been many, uh, and, and you mentioned one of them, Jimmie Lee Jackson. But there's Rodney King, there's Trayvon Martin, now there's George Floyd. Why does the back keep getting broken? Why don't things change? What is the single thing that's keeping us from reform that will prevent this from happening in the future?
Bakari Sellers: [Sigh] You know, people always say, uhm, people always say, do we need to see the video? And then people want to say, let me, I, I, I am going to disabuse some people of their notions right now. And they're like, oh, man, we just see them now. That's the difference. Right. But, you know, that's not the case because in 1955, what did we all see? Emmett Till's face. We all saw that picture. And anybody who hasn't seen that picture, who's listening to this show right now, put it on pause: go to Google, put “Emmett Till funeral” into your Google bar, and look at the image of his face. His mother had so much strength that she had an open casket so the world could see what racism, bigotry, and xenophobia had done to her son. We saw the images of the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Bloody Sunday. We saw skulls get cracked by police batons. Right? So we, we have seen--we have seen these things. And it's not the visual necessarily that breaks us. It's the Fannie Lou Hamer—"I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired"—that breaks us. You know, you can't, you can't continue to treat a group of people as if they're not free in a free society, but so long.
And, uhm, you know, I am so impressed by Carson Wentz.
Mark K. Updegrove: Mm hmm.
Bakari Sellers: I'm so impressed by Taylor Swift. I'm a Swiftie. I think “Red” was better than “1989.” I firmly do. [Mark K. Updegrove laughs]
Right? I just, that's my personal opinion. Now that might be the most con...I don't think that's the most controversial thing I'll say during this interview, but it might be. I'm a Swiftie. I am so pleased. And this is even more controversial. I absolutely deplore Clemson football. Can't stand it. I'm a big Gamecock fan, South Carolina Gamecock fan. But Trevor Lawrence, the No. 1 prospect coming out of college, No. 1 quarterback in the country came out and-and-and talked about his teammates, you know, and talked about being there and having their back. And so we're beginning to see it now as things are changing in this country.
But when you have images in front of the White House like you had. Uhm, and the, the emergence of cable news back to, "why are we at this point?" You know, the 24 hour news cycle doesn't, doesn't necessarily help, but I'm on CNN, you know.
Mark K. Updegrove: Sure.
Bakari Sellers: Uhm, I, I love my network and we do, we attempt to do brilliant work. Uhm, I love Anderson, and-and Don and, uhm, Cuomo and Erin and all of the, all of the crew, uh, especially John Berman is one of my good friends.
I taught a class at the University of Chicago. I'm rambling now, but hopefully somebody get something out of it. I taught a class at the University Chicago and, uhm, for David Axelrod. And I made my class, uhm, one week, watch “Morning Joe,” one week, watch “New Day,” one week, watch “Fox and Friends.” I had them confused. They literally thought that they were living in three different worlds [laughter]. They had no...and I called them my little Range Rover babies. I mean, you know, it's the University of Chicago. And you know, it's a different, it's a different atmosphere up there.
And they were literally just kind of dumbfounded by the news they were consuming. And, you know, nobody escapes it. My mom sends me, my mom sent me articles off Facebook and I'm like, Mom, first I'm in the news. Stop sending me news from Facebook. Uhm, you know, she sent me an article back in 2016. It was like from CBS.co. So it wasn't a real website it was one of those... It went viral and went around and it said, "They found Hillary Clinton's fake ballots in Ohio," and she was so mad. She called me. She said, "Man, if Hillary going to cheat make sure she doesn't get caught." [laughter] I was like, “Mom, stop, please.” But she just had this news cycle that goes on and on and on. And people only go out and want to reinforce new, or get news that reinforces the, the beliefs they already have.
Mark K. Updegrove: Uh, Bakari, what is the biggest factor in the rise in racism that we've seen in the past several years?
Bakari Sellers: I don't think we've seen a rise in racism in the past several years. I think that we have, I think that, uhm, we, think racism is always been there. And let me be extremely clear. I talk a lot about Stokely Carmichael because I was, that's like my uncle, uhm, and my, my father and him were roommates at Howard.
Mark K. Updegrove: And one of your son's is named after...
Bakari Sellers: My son is named after Stokely. So don't call it too loud because he will interrupt this broadcast. Uh, and Stokely grad... Stokely graduated from Howard, but then dropped out my, my -- convinced my father to drop out of Howard and to join SNCC, right. And so, uhm, Stokely defined racism as this. He said, "if you want to lynch me, that's your problem. But if you had the power to lynch me, that's my problem."
See, racism is not someone calling you nigger. Racism is a power and social construct. It's about systemic issues, not ignorance, sensationalized rhetoric. Ok? And so we've had these sys...these systems of injustice for a long period of time. The difference, though, is this, and let me take you to Charlottesville. What do you believe to be the most amazing in or awe- guess the moment that had you the most awestruck about Charlottesville? It wasn't that they were chanting “blood in soil” or “Jews should not replace us.” It wasn't, they were chanting “nigger” and all this other stuff. The most awesome thing was that they didn't wear masks or hoods. See, the difference between racism today and racism of yesterday is that the leadership we have today has made it okay to take off your mask. And so now it's emboldened. Alright. And people are more, people are more emboldened with what they say and, and-- and the things they do, uhm, that they don't have to wear masks. And the most amazing part about Charlottesville is those people are loan officers. They are in the school system. They are teacher’s assistants. They literally are. They are out there marching, uhm, for [laughter] true, unadulterated racism and they're in the systems of our everyday life. These are not people who were just in their grandmother's basement eating spaghetti off their stomach. Right? This is like...These are real, these are real people who are part of the systems that I'm talking about.
Mark K. Updegrove: Your father knew not only Stokely Carmichael, he knew Julian Bond and Martin Luther King in some of the other great leaders of the movement, uh, whose names we know. Why hasn't there been a unifying African American leader to lead a movement, uh, current day?
Bakari Sellers: Because my father would also tell you, and one of the things I wrote about in, uhm, "My Vanishing Country" is that even that movement didn't have a unifying leader.
Mark K. Updegrove: Hmm.
Bakari Sellers: Uhm, like I--I think this country and even a lot of black folk have a messiah complex. Now, we have to whisper when we say that because we're debunking a lot of theories out here, but everybody wants to wait on the next great Martin Luther King Jr. and everybody wants to wait on Malcolm and they want another Barack Obama, but that's not how we got change. We got change from Ella Baker and Fannie Lou Hamer. We got change from John Forman, uhm... James Forman, 'scuse me. We got change from Bob Moses and Kathleen Cleaver and Cleveland Sellers, uhm, you know, John Lewis. Uhm you know, it, it was all. It wasn't a unified leader. It was SCLC, SNCC, CORE, the Black Panther Party, Stokely. Uhm, you know, it was all of these people. And they pushed people to do more.
Bakari Sellers: I mean, there is this... you know, my, my father is sitting on a... my father and John Lewis are sitting on a sofa, uhm, across from LBJ after he signed the Civil Rights Act. Uhm, you know, we had those images. We had the images of my, my father actually, uhm, sitting with, uh, Kwame Ture, Stokely Carmichael and Elijah Muhammad. My-- one of my favorite images from the movement is when you had Jim Brown, you had, uhm, uh, uh Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and they're sitting there and you have that level. And now you have, you have like LeBron James right now who literally is the most powerful athlete in the world. And it's amazing how it works because LeBron now is stepping out and stepping out, so who now has a statement out last week? This week, Michael Jordan has a statement out. Who else has a statement? It was weak sauce, but Tiger Woods has a statement. So it's not just one unified leader.
Uh, I think that's a, I think that's a messiah complex that we feed into a lot. And I-- one of the lines that I wrote, when you write a book and you go back and read it, sometimes you, you write and you, you read and you're like, damn, that was good. [laughter] It was [inaudible]. So I wrote a line. I was talking about what my father taught us and he said “heroes walk among us” because he never wanted my family to think that it was just Martin, Malcolm, and Rosa. He wanted us to lift up those other voices, those people who, you know, Emmett Till just in the heat, always said this. Always. Emmett Till was the body that we found. But that Emmett Till represented so many other black bodies that are still in the bottom of the Mississippi today. And, you know, you know, we're sitting here and I've been, I've been thinking everybody asked me and they they think it's so difficult to get involved that I'm like, think about Andrew Goodman. Think about Mickey Schwerner. Right. They paid the ultimate price so that I could be here and be free and vote. You know, they died with James Chaney. You know, they, they-- they were found in a levine [ravine]. So it's not, it's not a one person. It's not a unifying person. It's a, it's a collection of people of like minds and good hearts.
Mark K. Updegrove: But let me respectfully challenge that. Uh, Uh, Martin Luther King comes out of Montgomery after having led a successful, uh, boycott of the bus system. Uh, he forms the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, becomes Time's Man of the Year in 1963, wins the Nobel Peace Prize in 1964. And it seems to me, Bakari, he coalesced a movement around nonviolence that was subscribed to by Diane Nash…
Bakari Sellers: Yep.
Mark K. Updegrove: and John Lewis and some of the soldiers of the movement. So what you have in a national leader is somebody who brings people together. They're not necessarily united, but they do bring people together. Where is that presence in America today?
Bakari Sellers: So, I mean, I, I I hear you and, I also want to make...because I don't disagree with your point, but I feel as if it's necessary to add, add a caveat...
Mark K. Updegrove: Sure...
Bakari Sellers: ...Since world will be listening to this conversation. The last Gallup poll of Martin Luther King Jr. was done in 1964, I believe, it might've been '66, but I think it was '64. Uhmm, he of course, he died April 4th of '68. And in that, in that Gallup poll, he had a 32 percent approval rating. Right. And I want people to know that Donald Trump's approval rating, it stays hovering between 40 and 48 percent. So Donald Trump, even today at this moment, has a higher approval rating than the last Gallup poll of Martin Luther King Jr. And I, I'd want to frame that perspective because people like to whitewash Dr. King and also don't remember him as a revolutionary, which he was.
Mark K. Updegrove: Right.
Bakari Sellers: Right? Remember he... when he died, he was literally with sanitation workers in, in Memphis, Tennessee. To answer your question, though, who is that person? uhm, I think, and I even I would say no one. Okay. And I even wrote about Barack Obama, and I'm interested to hear his response to this, because I'm sure I will hear it. He's never been one to shy away from his feelings. Uhm, I wrote how tepid he was on issues of Black Lives Matter. And how he attempted to stick his toe in but got blamed anyway. So I was like you-- there's no such thing as being halfway pregnant. Either you are or you're not. Right. So you might as well jump all the way in. And he never did.
Uhm, so I think that you--we're missing...there is a void to be filled. But to quote Thomas Friedman, like, the world is flat now. It's a totally different time. And so with the world being flat, as you hear my, my twins right now.
Bakari Sellers: Sorry, I think that's Stokely. He's a little upset. Oh, that's Sadie upset right now. So, I'm sorry.
Mark K. Updegrove: We’re all sheltering at home. Everybody can relate to what you're going through. [laughter]
Bakari Sellers:[laughter] Yes. [laughter] But to quote Thomas Friedman, the world is flat now. All right. And I'm not talking about like Kyrie Irving "the world is flat," I mean, like...the world is flat due to inter.. due to the way that we're interconnected. And so I don't, I think it's a lot more difficult for us to have a Dr. King like presence today, uhm, because of social media, because of the interconnectivity in, in the way that we go about our daily lives.
Mark K. Updegrove: You alluded to the soldiers of the movement being the real heroes. How...
Bakari Sellers: like the way you frame that. That's, that's good framing.
Mark K. Updegrove: Well, I think there are, there are a lot of people who want to be--people who are not of color, who want to make a contribution right now?
Bakari Sellers: Yes. Yes.
Mark K. Updegrove: So many friends of mine have called me and asked, "what can we do?" So I would ask you, what big and small things can people do to stop this tide of racism that holds us back as a nation?
Bakari Sellers: So the first thing I think people have to understand, and I'm glad you asked that question is, it's not on black folk to face racism in this country. It's not. Right? But uh, there are... In certai... and I've had to learn this, I'm only 35 years old, so, and everybody who's listening to this, please... If you disagree, I wholeheartedly understand. I'm still learning this, this life that I've been given to make it the most valuable that I can. But I also understand that I've learned that I'm always not the right messenger. And sometimes you will be a better messenger than I. And there are conversations that you have to begin to have with your white friends.
They're messages that we have to begin to have and you have two choices today: you can either be racist or anti-racist. It's not good enough for you to sit at home and say," I'm not racist, but..." Right? You actually have to be someone who's actively rooting it out. So if you want to march with the protesters, I say march. Right? With the sun up; I don't believe in... my father and I have this theory, "you don't protest when the sun's down." Because he got shot at night and he always says that "people do things under the cover of darkness they wouldn't otherwise do." So, like, I'm not asking anybody to do something that I wouldn't do. But if you want to protest, let me tell you why you standing out there with us matters. Because when the media sees the images of black and brown and white and yellow and pink marching hand-in-hand together, that is valuable, right? That shows that we're coming together, that we're…beginning the heal, the healing process. Write op-ed pieces to your local newspapers telling them how you feel.
You know, as a white man or white woman in today's America, even if you're just saying that I'm outraged. I'm outraged about the death of Ahmaud Arbery. I'm outraged about the death of Breonna Taylor. I'm outraged about George Floyd, and say, "I want justice, but I also want peace." Like you can't leave out the last part. Right? You can't leave out the first part. You can't leave out the last part. Alright. And so we have to begin to do this.
Donate to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. NAACP and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund are two different things. But donate to the Legal Defense Fund, who's actually doing the work to reconstruct these systems of oppression that we have in this country. You know, reach out to some of your local elected officials who are, who are black and say, you know, you might not vote for me, you might not have voted for them. Ask them what's going on in their communities. Like, how can I... How can I lend a hand to your community? Because what, what they may say is, "man, look, I've got an elementary school over here and we don't have a lot of light shined on this elementary school." But it's, it's you know, for me, if I say it's 80 percent free reduced lunch in South Carolina, that's low. Right? You know, if it's 90 percent free and reduced lunch that sounds more like home for me, but it may be like 70, 75 free and reduced lunch. And yet you're a banker or you are, you know, you have a great career, why don't you come over and read to these kids?Because they literally have never seen a white professional in there and they think that, they that they are not loved. Right? So just, just show them that you love them and that you care enough to spend 30 minutes with them. You know, we can be active participants in this. It's not a whole, it's not a whole lot . Go in. Go in these communities out here, uhm, and register people to vote. Like the community next to yours, it doesn't have to be your community. Go to the community next to yours and register people to vote. I mean, there's, there's so much we can do, uhm, that-- that doesn't require us necessarily putting on our Superman cape and being a hero, but building the fabric of our community from the ground up.
Mark K. Updegrove:You, you write Bakari in your wonderful book, "My Vanishing Country," uh, about your life being book ended in tragedy. Uh, both of which you've alluded to in this conversation. Talk about those tragedies and how they have shaped you.
Bakari Sellers: So the Orangeburg Massacre, uhm, is the most important day of my life, and I talk about it being such. And... it's... it weighs on me heavily for, for two reasons, and it's not because my father was shot. My father was shot and he had on these high water pants; and he had on his trench coat; and he had a sling when they brought him out what they called the jail, the Pink Castle; and he had on his converse, these Chuck, Chuck Taylors on his feet; and his pants were so small, we still give them hell about that today. Like what? How are you? How are you protesting in jeans that don't even come down to your ankles. Right? And he has this smile on his face. And you ask him you ask him, why are you smiling? And he was like "Bakari, because it was so absurd." He was like, "here I am. I'm shot." They come and get me from the hospital and they charge him with five felony counts, looking at a maximum of seventy five years in prison. They deny his bond. And then they house him on death row while his bond is denied. But it's not that that bothers me. I mean, I think about the Henry Smith, Samuel Hammond and Delano Middleton, who were killed. None of them were older than 19. And, and I live for them, but that's not the thing that weighs on me the most.
Bakari Sellers: I think the thing weighs on me the most is that as a country, we've just forgotten about it. Like, we don't even care to write about it in the history books. Like the blood of my family literally runs through the soil of this great country and people have the audacity to question whether or not I love America. [laughter] Like What the... like WTF. Like, really, like, come on, let's, let's find some, let's find some actual humanity here. So that, that's what, that's what bothers me first. Like the fact that we know Kent State, we even know Jackson State. I mean, the kids at Kent State were white, but still we know Kent State. We know Jackson. But people don't know Orangeburg. And that, that bothers me the most. And I write about that.
It also bothers me the toil that I see at play on my father, you know, just growing up in the house with my dad. You see that he, he's he's emotional like I am. We cry a lot. We're cryers. We both are. Uhm, but his eyes don't really pop like they used to because he shed so many tears and his shoulders aren’t as upright and to visibly see someone who is sacrifice for this country so much, uhm, just that toil, that burden of forever being called the scapegoat or being blamed for being the scapegoat for that night.
And you fast forward to Charleston. I was right around the corner. I talk about it in my book. I literally was right around the corner with Hillary Clinton when that happened. And, Clem was a friend of mine. Clem was a state senator where I was in the state house and I was the youngest black elected official in the country or whatever. I don't know whatever people say in books and stuff and they write about me.
Mark K. Updegrove: Twenty-two years old.
Bakari Sellers: Yeah, I was twenty-two when I got elected. And when I got elected, he he also was the youngest state senator to be elected. He was twenty five. Not, not, not when I was 22 but he was twenty five when he got elected. So he gave me a lot of advice. Uhm, and Clem went out the way that...that I would think he would. And, and let me explain that. A straggly white boy walks to your door, let's say a straggly white boy walks to the door with a backpack behind you right now. Are you gonna let that boy in your house? Like, I don't think so. Right?
I got... Clem let them in...He let him in the church. They'd never seen this boy before in his life. Let him in the church, they sat in a circle, for bible study. Because it was only like 12 of them? Sat in a circle, in the basement. And do you know where they sat this straggly white boy, Dylann Roof? Clem sat him right beside him, so that they could pray with him. And they spent an entire hour in bible study and then, as they were saying, their prayer and Clem bowed his head, he was shot in the neck with uhm...a forty five.
Uh... Clem actually made it to that. He was the only person who was shot who made it to the hospital. He fought ‘til his last breath. He made it to the hospital alive. I don't know if anybody knows that. So forgive me for... forgive me, Jennifer, for telling people that portion of that, but I think people need to know how strong he was, right. He fought to the end. And so, uhm, you ask how it affects me. My father is 75 today and I'm 35. We have many of the same shared experiences. And it should not be that way. And [inaudible] say I want to change after my little Stokely and my little Sadie.
Mark K. Updegrove: What do you mean by the title of your book, “My Vanishing Country”?
Bakari Sellers: So it's twofold: Uhm, the first is growing up in the poor rural south. We used to have we used to be a bastion for economic, upward economic mobility. Small businesses were flourishing. You had the textile plants and companies. Uhm. Uh, you know, we had schools that had so much pride. Uhm, we had railroad tracks that went north, south, east and west. And I'm not sure how valuable listeners know that is. But in my small town, because we had railroad tracks that went north, south, east and west, uhm, we were one of the-- we were like, we were bustling. Right?
The railroad tracks were pulled up, CAFTA and NAFTA rode in and all the textile mills closed. Uhm, we live in a court of shame, uhm school, so schools are falling apart. And all the small businesses which are the backbone of this great country we live in are, are you know, boarded. I, I grew up in a food desert now was what, what once used to be, you know, a great American town. It's a food desert now, which means you can't go two or three miles and get fresh fruits and vegetables.
The court of shame is where kids go to school and their heating and air don't work. Their infrastructure is falling apart. The politics of the day have made, have talked about the fact that we don't expand Medicaid so, you know, hospitals like mine closed down. So you can't, don't have access to quality care. The water's not clean, so you're drinking, uhm, dirty water and you overlay that with a pandemic. Right [laughter]? You have all of these systems of injustice and a pandemic, and there's no question why people are dying. But I, I lay that out and said that my country, that country, not, not just the United States of America, but like the country, the country boy I am is vanishing.
And then when you look at the macro view, not just life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but I don't know if you still believe in words like this, but I'm not yet jaded by reality. I don't want to be presumptuous, but I still believe in like hope and love and truth and justice and peace. I mean, I hope you don't laugh at me for believing in those things. And I believe in those things for my children. But those things for poor people, for black people, for immigrants in this country with this leadership, uhm, appear to be vanishing before our eyes. You can't tell me, there's no one who can tell me...that's why this title is like is really freaking me out. How like I might have hit something like a nail on the head with this book at this time.
It's funny, too, because I had to write this book really fast and people are like, people...I wrote it in like four or five months and I had to write it fast because there is a very big book coming out at the end of the year, uhm, by Barack Obama. [laughter] Like do you, you can't have a book out with Barack Obama [laughter]. People, they're going to spend their thirty dollars on Barack Obama, right? Uhm, and but you never want your book to come out during the middle of a pandemic either, uhm, in my vanishing country, uh, just this week we saw the president of the United States use the military and tear gas against peaceful protesters so that he could take a picture. I'm Episcopalian, too. So it made me mad on two fronts.
Mark K. Updegrove: [laughter] So I'm wondering, you make a distinction between racial equality and racial equity...
Bakari Sellers: Yes.
Mark K. Updegrove: What's the difference?
Bakari Sellers: So, like, I'm I'm I'm a huge proponent of equity. Right. Uhm, and the best thing I, the best way to describe it to you is, uhm, if you if you have three individuals of different heights who were standing behind the fence, I think we've all seen this picture before, but if we haven't, let me describe it. If you have one that's six feet; If you have one that's 5' 10'', and you have one that's 5' 5''. Right? And equality is we all give them the same size box. Well, guess what? The one who's 5' 5'' still can't see over the fence. The one that's 5' 10'' can barely see over the fence, and the one who's six feet still has the advantage.
But equity means that we make sure that all of them have the same view. Right. Now, what they do with that view, I'm not-- always tell people...I am... I can't make you dance. I just want us to all be on the dance floor together. Right. I don't know if you will be able to do the Shag, which is a big southern thing that we need to teach you how to do when you come to South Carolina. I don't know if you can do the Shag, but I want to make sure that you can at least get on the dance floor. Like, I don't know. I want my kids to be a success. My job is to make sure that they are successful. Like, our job collectively is to make sure they have opportunity.
Mark K. Updegrove: You talked about hope and optimism, and I think those are qualities that, that--that are not distinctly American, but they're, uhm, they're, they're part of the American, uh, spirit. Is there any way of reviving rural black America?
Bakari Sellers: Yes. Yes. Uhm, I mean, I have so many ideas, but like, we can invest in infrastructure. You know, and that's not really a sexy idea. That's me being a legislator again and me talking politics with you. But imagine if we, like, have a couple of trillion dollar investment in infrastructure, like that's bipartisan, too. And we, uh, we rebuild the water systems in this country. We rebuild the old roads and bridges in this country. We do things like connect with, uhm, high speed railway places like, uh, Charlotte and Atlanta, Georgia. Um, you know, just just think about it. Who's going to build those things? You know, a lot of a lot of people are going to build those things with their hands. And imagine, this is when I talk about the fact that we have race specific problems in this country. But Democrats and Republicans like to propose race neutral solutions. Under this theory that rising tides lift all boats. That's B.S. That that's really bad policy.
That's not the case. But let's say we have an infrastructure bill that's a trillion or two trillion dollars or whatever it is. And I say, I want you to do 10 percent of that with minority-owned businesses. You're already lifting up people. Right? And then the other 90 percent. I need you to make sure that they at least have hiring practices where they hire those businesses, hire 20, 25 percent minority. Right? People who can actually do the work. And then what happens is you not only have a good program where we are rebuilding our country's infrastructure, what we do the best in the world, we're hiring people, giving them jobs because 40 million un-- are unemployed. We're giving them really good jobs. We're empowering minority businesses. Right? And then because we have to create a new workforce, you'll have these companies because they need more minority workers. They're going to partner with HBCUs; they're going to get new engineers. Right? They're going to invest in STEM, STEM technology programs in inner city Detroit, in Chicago, so they can create this pipeline of engineering.
I mean, that's just one idea I had. Like, I don't know why Nancy and Mitch can get in a room and figure that out. Like, I know I feel like I know how to reform our policing program in a very bipartisan fashion. I think we need a national database for policing. Like, you know right now, if you're a police officer and you get fired in your hometown, all you got to do is go two towns down and they can hire you, right? There's no national database. There's no national use of force guidelines or standards. Let's do that. Why, why can't we do that? You know, let's let's limit qualified immunity and let's lower the standard. And this is, this is not even controversial, but let's lower the standard, because right now it's it's astronomically high. Let's lower the standard to bring federal criminal cases against law enforcement officers. What's wrong with that? We're only prosecuting bad officers. Good cops should want that, too.
So these, just, I mean, these are just ideas that I, that I had about how we revive, you talked about how we revive the poor rural black south. That's one way. I mean, you can, we can invest. You know, we just spent billions and billions and trillions of dollars. What happens if we gave a billion dollars to farmers in this country. Or ten billion dollars to farmers in this country and let them apply and make 14, 15 percent of that 20 percent of that goes to black farmers and Hispanic farmers and Native American farmers. I mean, just think about how we could cultivate new hemp products. Right? Think about how we could be on the front edge and cutting edge of new technology.
I don't know. I just think that. There's so much we can do and people, people it's people live with stop signs in their brains like they don't they are always afraid to be forward thinking. Like, let's do this. Let's let's revive, let's revive this country. Let's create a new paradigm.
Mark K. Updegrove: You are very candid in your book about the fact that you suffer from depression.
Bakari Sellers: Anxiety.
Mark K. Updegrove: Anxiety. Well, there are the, are the two synonymous?
Bakari Sellers: No. Medically, they're not [laughter]. So [laughter], so they're not. Anxiety is what, is what they call irrational fear. Uhm, and it's not, it's not necessarily paralyzing, although it can be. But I do talk about the fact that I, that I fear death, uhm, and I fear failure. It's kind of one and the same. But I don't want to die before I can make my parents proud. That's like really heavy for your listeners. I hope y'all are drinking Jamison after this episode [laughter]. They probably gonna be like, man, we got at least, we need to take a nap after listening to this episode. But, you know, I... those are my fears. Uhm, I talk about the reason why in the book. I don't want to give it all away, but I talk about how that, you know, your childhood sense of inevitability or invincibility it faded from me pretty quickly. And those are my fears that I live with on a daily basis. But I use them. I actually say anxiety and in subtitle is a black man's superpower, because, particularly black men don't like...we think the only, uhm, person we can talk to is our barber. We don't really talk to people with letters behind their names.
Mark K. Updegrove: Why is that? What why is that? You talk about this, too.
Bakari Sellers: It's it's it's it's a it's a tox-..here we go to the people in my mentions after they listen to this. It's a toxic masculinity. Right. It's just so pervasive. Uhm, it's also why a large portion of African American men, not large, but more African American men than should have, voted for Donald Trump. It's a toxic masculinity that that breeds some misogyny, that breeds this false sense of what manhood is. It's not weakness to uhm...I was on with, uhm, Iyanla Vanzant who knows this better than anybody. And I uhm, I--the way that I referred to it was that sometimes I get stuck in my head and you start you start to build these, this fear, uhm, and things that could go wrong, possible go wrong, et cetera, and you get stuck in your head. And she referred to it as being in your head without adult supervision which so you know, it's it's so it's such a better way to put it. Uhm, you know, but I found cool people to talk man. I talked to Tyler… Perry. I talked to T.D. Jakes. I talked to Steve, Steven Furtick, who, you know, who will be great on your show in the future? A conversation with T.D. Jakes and Steven Furtick together. Yeah.
They kind of get a, you know...I'm so I'm so angry right now because I'm angry, like I have a range of emotions at this moment when I'm interviewing with you, I'm angry. And I'm not angry with Donald Trump. Right? I haven't been angry at Donald Trump, ever. Because I don't have any expectation for him. Right? He...you don't change 70 year old men: black, white, [inaudible] you just don't. They are who they are, right? They gon’ be who they are forever. But I'm so angry at, like evangelicals who just sit on their hands and don't say anything.
Mark K. Updegrove: Has the black church changed?
Bakari Sellers: Yes.
Mark K. Updegrove: The black church was the foundation of the civil rights movement. Where's the black church today?
Bakari Sellers: It's not enough. T.D.’s is not enough. William Barber. William Barber is also a hell of a guest. I don't know if you've had him, but he's a great guest for your show. Uhm, there's not enough there's not enough people who are teaching how to... they're not teaching ministry in the streets outside of the parameters of their church. It's all about... I mean, it's capitalistic, which I love capitalism. Don't get me wrong. But it's all about who can, uhm, have the most branches, who can become a major megachurch the quickest, who can have the most fireworks in their service. Uhm, I...so it used to be a center of, of progressive change. That's why they bombed it. That's why it was always a target. Like black church... well, I mean, I can't say that because Dylann Roof literally just went and murdered nine people in a church. But it's not the same type of progressive, ideological, uhm, active, uhm, bastion of civil rights that it used to be.
Mark K. Updegrove: You talked about the fact that you're feeling anger now during this, uh, as I mentioned earlier, dark chapter that we're facing. But I hear in your voice hope and optimism. Where does that come from?
Bakari Sellers: Well...I refused that that, you know, black folk in this country when they came here 400 years ago, last year, were stripped of everything. And so that's why we have, uhm, that's why this book is so like on a mic-, on a very macro level, personal to me, because, you know, we came from a people of storytellers. And, you know, we would always tell our story and pass it down. And different, different cultures, do the same thing. But in our culture, we would always pass those stories down. And so for me, this is pretty cool because I had an image of me as a six year old and a little black boys get to pick it up, right, and see that reflection, which is pretty cool to me. And then they also just get to read my story and we get to past pass those those stories down. Uhm, but I'm I'm hopeful because I'm thinking about those 400 years and we'd never let people take away our stories. We've never let people take away our hope. We never let people take away our faith even as strangers in a foreign land. Right. We always had hope and we always had faith.
And now I have kids and I have a 15 year-old who, if anybody wants to come pick her up, let me know. [laughter] We're going through being fifteen in quarantine, which is a lot. She can now get her permit. And it's kind of wild, I don't know what to tell her about this time. I mean, other than the truth, she's asking a lot of questions, so I try to be truthful with her. But now she's getting a permit. I have to have a conversation with her that you probably don't necessarily have to have with your kids about, you know, how to interact with law enforcement and what happens if they had their own Amy Cooper, who wants them to leave when... I, I let my daughter go down with her friends, not now, but I used to walk around the little outdoor shopping center up there. And, you know, I don't want anybody to think that they're, you know, a part of a all girls, you know, Taylor Swift and Beyonce listening-to gang, I don't know. Uhm, so we're gonna have a conversation. Uhm, we are having that conversation. But I, I look at them and I just realized that they don't deserve to live in this America. So I'm hopeful and I'm intentional and purposeful that I'm going to work as hard as I can to make sure that, uhm, we build a more perfect union. And, and fundamentally, you ask why I'm hopeful. It is ironic. I'm talking to you now because I'm going to quote Abraham Lincoln in saying that "I believe in the better angels of our nature."And I think that that's a that's a good place to be.
[Podcast theme music begins]
Mark K. Updegrove: This is a sad time in our nation, and I want to thank our guest, Bakari Sellers, for shedding light on the challenges on race that we continue to face.
I also want to thank our sponsors, the Moody Foundation and St. David’s Healthcare, and you, for joining us. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever your listen to your podcasts.
I’m Mark Updegrove. See you next time.
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