As a reporter and news anchor, Dan Rather has covered the biggest stories of the last half-century, from the Civil Rights Movement and Watergate to 9/11 and COVID-19. Rather gives us his wise perspective on the times we're living in compared to those he's covered in the past; Donald Trump and his toxic relationship with the news media; and why he's a Texan by birth and by choice.
As a reporter and news anchor, Dan Rather has covered the biggest stories of the last half-century, from the Civil Rights Movement and Watergate to 9/11 and COVID-19. His wise commentary on current events has made him a social media phenomenon with millions of followers. Rather gives us his perspective on the times we're living in compared to those he's covered in the past; Donald Trump and his toxic relationship with the news media; and why he's a Texan by birth and by choice.
*Like many of us, Rather is quarantined at home with family members, and some ambient noise can be heard in the background—but this is well worth a listen.
[Podcast introduction with theme music in the background]
President Lyndon Baines Johnson: So, it's all here, the story of our time—with the bark off.
Mark Updegrove: That was President Lyndon Baines Johnson upon the dedication of his presidential library in 1971. Since then, the library has played host to the biggest names and best minds of our day, who have helped to tell the story of our times through candid, revealing conversations—with the bark off.
This podcast delivers them straight to you. Welcome to “With the Bark Off.” I'm Mark Updegrove.
As a reporter and news anchor, Dan Rather has covered the biggest stories of the last half century. From the civil rights movement and Watergate to 9/11 and COVID-19, his wise commentary on current events have made him a social media phenomenon. The 88-year-old gives us his perspective on the times we’re living in compared to those he’s covered in the past; Donald Trump and his toxic relationship with the news media; and why he’s a Texan by birth and by choice.
[Slow fade of theme music. Conversation begins.]
Mark Updegrove: Well Dan Rather, welcome. We’re delighted to have you here today.
Dan Rather: Thank you very much. It’s good to see you, Mark.
Mark Updegrove: Well, you— you’re talking to us from your apartment in New York City during an unprecedented shutdown. What does your life look like right now?
Dan Rather: Well, I have basically been isolated in my apartment and fully quarantined, uh, for most of the time, since, I believe it's March 5th. I was— I had my bags packed and was within minutes leaving to the airport to come to Austin for South by Southwest EDU, that’s the education part of it, when the psychological bombshell was dropped that they were canceling the whole affair. From that time on, I've been in my apartment [inaudible] full quarantine for well over a month and isolated before that. But, uh, no complaints, you know, I have great gratitude that I don't have the virus; I haven't given it to anybody else—I don't think; and I haven't added to the burden of our health care system, so I consider every day a blessing. But I do my work as best I can. I'm not, uh, all that technologically, uh, uh, adapt with modern equipment, so that’s a fun way of saying that my grandson Martin has helped me a great deal conquer whatever technological mountains have been [inaudible].
Mark Updegrove: I don’t, I don’t know what we would do without our children at this moment in time, Dan [laughter]. Grandchildren… uh, you have been covering the news for seventy years, you’ve been, on, uh, uh the beat since, uh, uh, you were at the Associated Press here in Texas in 1950. What’s the closest thing you’ve seen to what we’re experiencing right now? Does anything come close?
Dan Rather: In my lifetime, there's nothing that comes anywhere close to this. The closest would have been the start of for us, for the Americans of World War II. In the early stages of World War II, uh, the news was very grim, and it looked like we were destined to lose. The Germans were-seemed to have victory after victory; the Japanese were ruling, uh, in the far rim of the pacific. That’s the closest I can recall to a time when the country had to say to itself “you know, we better pull ourselves together or we're facing a cataclysmic defeat.” But I think the closest in modern American history [inaudible] come to this was the now much talked about Spanish flu epidemics of 1918. But, although I'm 88 years old, even I was not alive during that period [laughter], so I can't say that I recall that. But I would say the, the— the beginning in the first months of World War II, oh, after the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor is the closest I can recall in my lifetime.
Mark Updegrove: World War II changed us and probably for the better. Do you think we will fundamentally change when we come out of this?
Dan Rather: Well, first of all, things will not be the same. There will be fundamental change and because of that— there will be fundamental changes, uh, in healthcare and there’ll be fundamental changes in the economy, most of which we can’t even foresee, but because there will be dramatic changes, yes, we will change. We will have to change. But as you know, Mark, uh, I'm an optimist by experience and by nature. And my own optimism, together with my experience with the American public, which is very resilient, is that— this may be a very long [inaudible], I fear it will be, but I do believe we’ll come out the other end, better for the experience, and we have a great chance to be a better society, uh, a better people contributing to a better world. But, that's not going to happen just by wishing for it, we're going to have to, as our predecessors in this country, our mothers and fathers and grandfathers and grandmothers did, we're going to have to prove that were equal to the occasion, and this is a mighty challenge.
Mark Updegrove: Do you think, Dan, that we will come out a more united society as a result of this?
Dan Rather: I do. And part of the reason I think so is because I hope so fervently that, that will be the case. But again, I— I do acknowledge this hangs in the balance…
Mark Updegrove: Right.
Dan Rather: … it depends on what we do. But I do think we will come out of it [inaudible] a more united country. I certainly hope and pray so.
Mark Updegrove: You’ve tweeted recently of the administration’s plan on COVID-19, “when it comes to the meat of President Trump’s pandemic plans, I’ve seen more on a bleached, picked over stray cattle carcass left for months in the Texas sun.” While we’ve seen President Trump’s poll numbers go down, he still has an approval rating of 43 percent according to Gallup. How do you explain the strength that President Trump has among his base? And it, it seems to endure regardless of what the president does in the office.
Dan Rather: Well, I agree. Uh, first of all, let's acknowledge that his poll numbers generally speaking, were going up some before the coronavirus, uh, came into play, however, for the length and breadth of his presidency so far, his approval ratings have been well below the norm for any presidency, Republican or Democratic— the general rule. So, we want to have some perspective with that. I think that President Trump is— he has a canny ability to recognize what rhetoric, what symbols will touch the rawest nerves that divide us. For example, immigration, race, these things are base feelings. And he does have a, if you want to call it a genius. He has a political touch…
Mark Updegrove: Mmm.
Dan Rather: … of being to— able to exploit that. And so, I think the explanation of the 42, 44 percent general approval rating that he has, uh, not about the coronavirus, but generally in his presidency, has to do with his ability, uh, to exploit, uh, fears in the country. But the most important thing right now, Mark, if I may say so about his, his leadership or lack of leadership is to recognize that it— it has been so inefficient, so disorganized, so chaotic, so even dysfunctional to me almost jaw dropping.
Mark Updegrove: Mhmm. The, the media landscape, Dan, is far more fragmented than when you started in this business, but I— I wonder, on balance, has the press covered this administration responsibly in your opinion?
Dan Rather: I do think overall on the main, yes. [inaudible] While always noting that nobody does it perfectly, made some mistakes, I think the answer to your question is yes, and particularly I think the public at large, I, uhm, hope and believe that they will recognize that among the ways that the press has done a very good job of covering Trump is, it— there's been a revival, uh, to some extent of really deep digging, investigative reporting.
Mark Updegrove: Mmm.
Dan Rather: Uh, during the Trump administration— of all it good. And I don't— I hate to single out any, you know, any particular thing, but both The New York Times and The Washington Post has done some brilliant reporting, investigative reporting as, have, uh, some of the on-air networks. And I think the press should be given credit for that. At the same time, you know, we— collective, the press— we've made our mistakes. We've not been perfect in the Trump time. But, uh, I, I hate to say it's the golden era of American journalism, but it's been a pretty good era these last two or three years.
Mark Updegrove: Of the presidents that you’ve covered, Dan, who, who is the best crisis manager, in the White House, in, uh, that— that you have observed?
Dan Rather: Well that’s a very good question because, it, you can make a case for a, a number of presidents, as you know, as crisis managers. Lyndon Johnson was pretty good. Uh, it's not to say his presidency was perfect. It wasn't, they'll always be Vietnam and, for example, in the immediate wake of the assassination of President Kennedy, keeping in mind that that was an emotional earthquake for the country, you know, a solid hammer to the heart, not only for each individual American, but for the country as a whole...
Mark Updegrove: Sure.
Dan Rather: … and, and— to lead a peaceful and effective transfer of power it's very tough, uh, in the manner in which President Johnson did. I've often thought he didn't get as much credit for that as he probably should, so he managed that crisis, uh, uh, very well. The crisis of Vietnam War, of course he failed, uh, miserably with that, but in the immediate week— wake of the Kennedy assassination he handled that, uh, extremely well. I thought that President Obama handled the economic situation he inherited, the very deep recession in 2008, I would consider that a crisis. He had a lot of support including some bipartisan support, and we should acknowledge that, but, uh, he was very good in, in managing that crisis.
Mark Updegrove: Dan is there a— is there a common dominator, uh, that you’ve seen from presidents who effectively handle crises that we can learn from in this moment? Uh, is there a quality that stands out— a common quality?
Dan Rather: Absolutely. I, I want to answer that, Mark. But, before I forget, I do want to say, that, uh, President George W. Bush…
Mark Updegrove: Mmm.
Dan Rather: …in the immediate wake of 9/11, handled that, uh, in my opinion pretty well. The decision to invade Iraq, which happened later is a whole other story. But in the— in the first days and weeks after the attack on 9/11, I would give President George W. Bush some credit.
Mark Updegrove: Mmm.
Dan Rather: Now as to what, you know, good leaders in crisis share… first of all is an ability to be, and to convey authenticity, to be authentic and to convey a sense of authenticity. There has to be a high degree of communicable trust between the leadership and the led, particularly during crisis, particularly when the heat is on. And the mark of a good leader, is, it— when things are most difficult, overwhelmingly the people he's trying lead trust him to tell him the truth. Uh, where leaders so often fail and I think any reasonable reading of history, again, ancient and modern history is… leaders ultimately fail when they consistently try to conceal the truth; when they try to put something over on the people they’re trying lead, uh, when they try to, for example, uh, deflect blame for mistakes. Those are some of the hallmarks of, of leaders who lead well in crisis. And, I’ve seen this on the battlefield as well, with— in the military much of the same thing applies. From everything from platoon leaders to [inaudible] generals, those who succeed are generally ones who are able to engender trust among those they lead.
Mark Updegrove: On, on April 17th Dan, you, you tweeted— you, you retweeted a Forbes.com article titled “What do countries with the best coronavirus responses have in common?” And they answer their own question with women leaders, and you hash tagged it “not surprised.” Why did that not surprise you?
Dan Rather: Well because it's been my experience generally speaking. Glad you picked that out [laughter]. It has definitely, definitely been my experience.
Mark Updegrove: That, that women are just generally better during a crisis?
Dan Rather: Short answer is—yes. I know I’ll get myself into trouble here, but I have to—I'm trying to be honest with you—be authentic. Yes, uh, I think partly because women have to deal with crises for example: childbirth. You know, it’s a celebration, it’s a great life force, but it’s also a crisis if you’re the person giving birth. I don't know why it is and maybe I'm wrong, but it has been my experience that overall in the main and generally speaking, women tend to be at least equal and, and in many cases superior to men.
Mark Updegrove: Hmm. Uh, you—you have nearly three million followers on Facebook and almost a million followers on Twitter. Has the massive reception you’ve gotten on social media surprised you?
Dan Rather: It has surprised me, Mark, to the point that it has stunned me.
Mark Updegrove: [laughter]
Dan Rather: Uh, that I had no idea and I, I'm very grateful, my gratitude runs deep, to have the response be what it has turned out to be. As I think you and I may have discussed at another time and in another context that I was very slow to come around on social media. I really felt that I was born too young for social media. As you know, I'm 88 years old, I like to say I don't even buy green bananas anymore [laughter]. And when social media first came on, I just said, look, it's not for me, but younger members of my staff, a small staff of people I work with journalists and projects, and [inaudible] just said, look, it's, it's not— it's not an option if you want be anywhere relevant, even on the periphery, uh, you have to be on social media. And so, I said, I’ll give it a try, but I wasn’t very optimistic. But I am very grateful for the response. I have no idea why the response has been as good as it’s been, other than possibly, you know, I’ve been lucky and blessed to live this long; I’ve been a few places and seen a few things, and what we’re try— what I try to do on social media is give some context and perspective to what’s happening, particularly when I can some historical context and perspective, and at least with some of the audience there, there seems to be a desire for that and that’s what, what success we’ve had is probably to do to that as much as anything.
Mark Updegrove: You are considered, and rightfully so, one of the best reporters that the press has ever produced. What is the most interesting and compelling story you’ve covered in your long career?
Dan Rather: Well first of all, Mark, I— I very much appreciate the kind words, uh, about my career. I’m not sure they're justified but they're very, very much appreciated. Um, I’m going to try and answer the question, Mark. But, I want to answer it in the context that I've been so lucky and blessed as a reporter. I could answer any one of maybe five, six, or seven stories and be satisfied with it, but uh, when I covered— not the very early stages, but the fairly early stages of the civil rights movement and covered Dr. Martin Luther King during the period 1962 and ’63, this changed me as a person and, and changed me as profession and sometimes when others say well what, what the biggest story as an ongoing story and one that reverberated in the years since then, I would say that. For a, a story of, of a contained period, a short period of time [inaudible] being in Dallas and covering the assassination of President John Kennedy would be up there.
Mark Updegrove: I, I—I wanna go back to Martin Luther King for just one moment. Uh, cause you saw that great leader up close, Dan, and, and he has risen to mythological proportions. Have we lost sight of any aspect of Martin Luther King through all the mythology around him?
Dan Rather: Well yes, I think we have and mind you, I do believe that Dr. King is, uh, is worthy of the iconic position he's taken in, in history.
Mark Updegrove: Sure.
Dan Rather: Uh, I'm— I’m very much aware, I was aware at the time of some of his vulnerabilities, and had become, uh, aware as the years gone by of things we didn't know at the time. He was not perfect; he did not claim to be perfect; uh, he certainly had his flaws, but I, I do think he's worthy of the iconic. But I think one of the things that sometimes gets overlooked I was, I’ll men—I would mention two things. The first is sometimes mentioned but it only gets passing mentioned, is what a brave person he was. That he literally walked moment by moment on the razor's edge of lethal danger. He knew that he could be and probably would be somewhere along the line assassinated, and to live in that moment in moment out and go ahead anyway takes real courage. He had it.That's the first thing. But the second thing is I do think it's overlooked is that that there’s so much emphasis and understandably so on what Dr. King was seeking was racial justice that with that and every bit as important to him was his struggle for economic justice for people all colors and to this day I don’t think that gets quite as much attention as it probably should.
Mark Updegrove: Right. In your Twitter profile, you describe yourself as “Texan by birth and by choice.” How has being a Texan shaped who you are?
Dan Rather: Well, I’m not quite sure how to answer that. I do feel it very strongly that being a Texan has shaped who I am for better and for worse. I do believe—I, I think it's true to this day but it was certainly true of Texans of my generation and the generations that preceded me in Texas. You can’t understand Texas or Texans or what being a Texan means without understanding the closeness of Texans to the land. Uh, one of my earliest memories was my maternal grandmother Paige who lived in Bloomington, Texas which is down near the coast near Victoria. One of my earliest— I must have been probably four or five years old was, I was barely memory age of we were outside she said, you know, “Danny run your hands through the land, through the earth.” It’s black land out in Bloomington. “Run your hands through the earth; this is Texas; this is what you're a part of,” and that stuck with me. I, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it does to me that you [inaudible] being a Texan. And I also think that part of being Texan, and what Texas is meant to be, you know, for me is Texans past and present generally speaking have a great— we have many flaws, God knows I [inaudible], but one of our strengths is that we tend to look beyond the far horizon. That it's— look way, way ahead, looking for a—new frontiers, new things to try, and you know, this is very much part of my own upbringing, but I confess that I get, uh, sort of not very eloquent and possibly not even very much understanding trying to explain Texas. Who the hell can explain Texas?
Mark Updegrove: [laughter].
Dan Rather: Uh, but what I will say Mark that when I came to CBS News and began traveling go on long flights to Southeast Asia, [inaudible] far away places with strange sounding names, some of them long forgotten, that, it— there's a struggle within yourself to say, you know, who am I? You’re traveling the world, you— you’re going…now answering the sound of gunfire, you’re flying all over and if you aren't careful, you lose a sense of your center. And Texas has always given me a sense of my center. Wherever I was, whatever I was doing; good, better, different; long travel or short travel; away from home for long periods of time or whatever, I always— in answering the question who am I, and who I’ll become? The answers always been I’m Texan by birth and by choice. That’s who I am, that’s what I am.
Mark Updegrove: Why do Texans have such outsized pride in their state? Do, do you have any— do you see any, uh, anything behind that? There’s a palpable pride that you have and we can hear it in your voice, Dan that, that about being Texan. Why is that?
Dan Rather: You know I don't know the answer to that question, Mark. I always like to try and answer a question. I don’t know the answer to that question. But I think part of it is our, our history. Texas has a, [inaudible] an improbable history [laughter]. Uh, having been its own nation is part of that; knowing that we’re the only state that we were our own nation, uh, before we became a state. I think part of it is the, the myths of Texas. They’re such strong myths: the Alamo, Jim Bowie, the Bowie Knife, Sam Houston, Stephen F. Austin, uh, the— the mythology of the state, the, the iconic characters [inaudible] are all part of it, but I think in the end that one of the things about Texans is this sense of, of independence.
Uh, and individual responsibility, which we could spend another podcast talking about how that effects our politics of our state past and present, but I think that's an important thing to keep in mind about Texans for better or for worse in some ways many of us Texans are conflicted by it, but there's the—the pride in saying listen I'm responsible for myself; I want to be self-reliant strong sense of independence on the other hand recognizing that collectively and being part of a society is the only way to get many major things done presents some peculiar conflicts, uh, for Texans and increasingly so as we get deeper into the 21st century.
Mark Updegrove: Sure. I, I want to end this conversation where I began it, which is to go back to the pandemic that we’re all experiencing now. What is the best thing that you will take from this experience? This shelter in place, stay at home, uh, uh anti-social almost experience that we’re all going through?
Dan Rather: Well again Mark, you’re a very good interviewer, very good question…
Mark Updegrove: [laughter] Spoken from the best…
Dan Rather: …uh, for me and I know this to be true of, of many people who I’m acquainted going through the same thing is a sense of the importance of gratitude, humility, and modesty, and understanding that, you know, the world to say the least is a very complicated place and there's so much about it we don't understand; we can't understand the great mysteries of life. That you have to look deep within yourself and just recognize that arrogance and conceit leads to so much trouble, destruction. I just find myself repeating to myself sometimes sort of as a litany: gratitude, humility, modesty, don't forget how important they are.
[Podcast theme music begins]
Mark Updegrove: My thanks to the legendary Dan Rather, the Moody Foundation and St. David's HealthCare, and of course, to you for joining us. Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
I'm Mark Updegrove. See you next time.
[Podcast theme continues playing and fades out to ending.]